Concept; Build a Tag Masters Light class for 2017!

[David Hosie]

This is a concept that has been discussed with a few of our Senior / Master drivers.

It appears that there may be a significant Number of the over 30year old drivers that may be interested in getting a TAG class that is for the Master drivers but NOT at the 405lb weight that is set by SKUSA. Effectively at a lighter weight!

It appears that there may indeed be enough interest in this that we could have potentially 8-10 participants on a regular basis, which would certainly be enough to warrant splitting the Masters out from the Senior / Junior group allowing the masters to have their own heat sans of other Tag Classes! This could produce some fantastic racing, think a fast version of LO206! Really you guys are some of the best and most experienced drivers we have it could end up being the best racing to watch in 2017!

We obviously will be having our AGM in January where this could be discussed if their is enough interest. Paul suggested I get a discussion going on the forum so lets get some discussion going! Let everyone know if you would be interested! Suggest a weight and also any other aspects you think may be of benefit to a class like this!

[Patrick Roth]

Are you proposing to simply move the 405 weight down to 385 (or some other weight)? Or create 2 different Master classes?

As a spectator, I would like to see the Masters run in their own heat because I'm sure they would make for some great racing to watch! As a racer, the last thing I would want is another heat, especially when the lap times are so close with the Senior/Junior group.

I don't have any intention of going back to TaG anytime soon but thought I'd throw in my two cents for a healthy debate.

Cheers!

[Justin Upchurch]

I think this is a great concept and I like the 385 weight that Patrick suggested. However, if there are enough karts, I wold like to see a separate class. In general, the Masters group has to go to work on Monday and don't take the risk that some of the Sr and Jr. racers take. You could end up with a fun class without the turn 1 carnage that seems to happen from time to time.
I for one would like to see a class like this run on a harder tire that we could expect to get two races out of. Maybe run this class on an MG red? Mike Rhode's series has already proven that that tire lends to good competition and can be easily run for two events. I know the club gets a big check from 3G and Evinco, but that leaves only the soft tire as the only option, at a huge expense to the racers.

[Patrick Roth]

What exactly is the goal/purpose of this class? Is it to create another class with a weight in between our current Masters and Seniors (which I would suggest they figure out the best weights rather than add another class)? Or is it to try and split it out so the Masters don't have to race in the same heat as the Seniors/Juniors because of the perception of turn 1 carnage and other aggressive maneuvers?

I'm opposed to creating another heat as the race day is already pretty long, especially with some of the highly attended club races we saw this year. If they want to find a spot that has them run up front of the heat yet still has a lower weight rating than consider the World Formula and make it a "Masters" class. At the same weight rating of the 206 (375lbs) it would definitely have the class starting in front of the 206's. On MG Red's we saw times dip into the high 44's at the TSRS race so it isn't completely out of the ballpark.

Obviously I'm partial because I have a World Formula and would love to race Paul and the other "seasoned" racers, but this decision is unlikely to have an impact on my racing plans for next year. You want a Master's class to qualify/race up front in their heat and use a durable tire than consider a WF with MG Reds. It certainly isn't as flashy as a TaG motor screaming at 50,000 rpm's, but it also doesn't need rebuilt as often and you can buy a complete motor for the price of a TaG rebuild (granted my numbers may be a little off since I haven't had to pay for a TaG rebuild since my Rotax, Leopard days).

Cheers!

[Jared Johnson]

If the start is a primary concern, are staggered starts a viable option for T1 carnage abatement? I will echo Patrick's sentiment that adding another hour to the race day is not desirable for most of the racers.
I'm not a TaG driver so no input for weight breaks, etc.

[Patrick Roth]

Jared,

Staggered starts are an option but they are difficult to do in reality because if the flagger doesn't like the start than there are now multiple groups that need to be re-positioned, spaced out, etc before the flag can be thrown again. TaG is notorious for needing multiple restarts so staggering probably isn't a good option. Now, if the officials became super strict on starts (ex: front row is sent to the back if a restart is needed) and a fuss wasn't thrown whenever an official makes a call than it may be an option but based on my experience, you are more likely to win the lottery...

[Ken Snider]

What is the goal of a Masters Light Class? I didn't make many events this year but I do fall into the TaG Master by age (over 30 by a bunch) and weight (over 405 at the scale without any help). My lap times are well off the TaG Senior by at least 6 or more seconds. I'm lap traffic. Before saying more, I appreciate that there has been conversation concerning TaG and TaG Master - no discern intended just straight up question so we can sensibly consider and comment, what is the goal of Masters Light?

[Brian Benedict]

I have been running TAG Masters for the past 2 seasons and I echo Ken when I say that I am very happy to see a conversation being had. I would very much like to run the next season at GCKI although I am at a fork in the road as a thirty something 175lb driver, I can either be one of the heaviest Seniors or a light Master in a very small group. First off, I believe there will be an increase in competitors in the Master series next year, but the gap to the Senior class is too great. The current minimum of 405 seems too high, and a harder tire would be nice, although I think it may take more than that such as an engine rule or something to help create separation.
With the MY09's, 08's, Rotax, X30's, and an X125T all on the track at the same time, it may be a good idea to add another element other than a more accommodating weight, and cost friendly compound.

[Ken Snider]

Appreciate what little conversation this has generated. Thanks to those that have piped in on the topic. Didn't generate much interest at the Forum level but experience has been that not many do monitor or utilize this for discussion, at least not much.
David wouldn't have posted if the interest wasn't valid. But the suggested significant number of over 30 year olds asking for a change isn't obvious here.
Without anything else to go on but the points made in the original post I'd have to throw my "Not Interested" in the hat because I'd be shooting myself in the foot. I'm over 405 lbs at the scale! It wasn't suggested that we would be eliminating the Masters class as it is so if I'm on track alone so be it.

Anyone else interested in Masters at 405plus size? I do envy you lighter fellas!

[Paul Jones]

Well, I guess I started this conversation when I suggested to David to get a forum discussion together, so I might as well chime in. This works better than trying to solve it in a 15 minute discussion at the annual meeting. I believe the goal is to increase the size of the Masters class and get some competition going for the seasoned and not so light racers. Historically, the TaG Masters has been some of the most intense racing at Katy. We lost a lot to the shifter group a few years back, and have not built it back up. Those of us that have been part of that group went over to the Sr. side because that was where the numbers were to race, not because we didn't like racing at the heavier weight. We have a great group of very good Sr. racers that have a lot of experience and create quite a challenge for us that can't make the weight (even if you can, it is still hard). I think we can get the numbers up this year, and I am all for going back to that group. I'd like to voice my observation on three of the issues that have been brought up. Weight, starts, and tires.

Let's start with weight We have always catered to the heavier Masters and let the others adjust their weight up to make close racing. We have always been at 400-405 even when SKUSA was 385 so we could get as many at the same weight as possible. SKUSA finally came up to that weight and runs that regionally and Nationally very successfully. The problem of splitting the class into two weights is that you dilute the racing. If you get 6 Masters and 3 are at 385, and 3 at 405, you just don't get the same level of competition. Those two groups will be a few tenths off of each other. If you are light, you still have the option of racing Sr. With most having automatic kart stands, even picking up the heavier karts is not an issue.

Next is starts. If the Masters run at 405 lb+, they are 40 lb heavier than Sr., and at least 1 second slower. This means most of the Sr's will qualify ahead of the Masters, and in essence have a split start. The masters are not so slow as to get lapped, so it should not interfere with the Sr. race, and the Masters can have a great race of their own.

The third item is tires. It has only been over the last few years that the sight of almost all of the Tag racers on the grid having new tires for qualifying being a common occurrence. Historically it was 30% on new, only because they were out of sequence and they had worn their tires out. The competition is so good and so close, .5 seconds difference in qualifying can see 10 grid spot change. These tires are competitive in the pre-final and final with one race on them if tuned correctly, you just can't get that extra .5 seconds out of the used for that critical lap 2-3 in qualifying. Any tire is going to be faster new compared to used for that critical qualify lap. Just look back to the Chonda's of a year or so ago. If the field is 5-7 as the Masters may be, You can make that up over the pre-final and Final. You just can't make up the 6-10 grid spots when racing against the big Sr. field. I would feel comfortable running used tires in the Masters class. I feel you can get at least two races per set of tires. that is a 50% savings on the tire bill.

Again, these are just my observations and experience. Your's may vary, so that is why we should continue the dialog. Bottom line is, let's build up the TaG Masters class again.

[Ken Snider]

Thanks for the explanation Paul. Along with some club history it helps in understanding.

[Brian Benedict]

Any considerations to capping the age in TAG Senior at 30 to create a spill over into the Masters class? Seems like an easy way to balance the two out.

[Paul Jones]

We have always followed the national sanctioned age brackets for insurance purposes, so we have not considered that in the past. There would not be an issue with the insurance as they would be racing in a class that they are nationally eligible. They just would not be allowed to race in another class that they are nationally eligible. It would probably better to provided incentive to move into a class instead of forcing racers to move into that class. Those older racers that still can make the minimum weight and race competitively with the young Srs should be allowed to do so.

[Brian Benedict]

Agreed and a change like that does nothing to promote the class just moves racers around. I was just curious if that had been a consideration.

[Jean Michel Gaston]

As a former TaG Masters racer (one of those who went to shifter years ago), I wholeheartedly agree with Paul's position in the post above. I think TaG Masters was the most fun class I ever raced in, and all it needs to return to it's old glory is to promote it a little more to lure more racers into the fold. Threads like this one certainly help. If you look at the fields at the Supernats, some of the strongest are always in the TaG Masters.

I think the weight at 405 is good (but I'm biassed on that, I could never get down to a 385 limit). Lighter driver will always have an advantage, even at the 405 limit, given that they can place their ballast strategically to improve their chassis tuning.
When I raced in Masters, I always did a minimum of 2 weekends on the same set of tires. I've never been a good qualifier, so the extra tenths gained with new tires made little difference to me. If there were a way in the rules to keep drivers from using new tires every race weekend, you could get cheaper running costs and be a more attractive class for racers with tighter budgets. We tried that in shifters a few years ago, but it was not possible to enforce well. The regional event seem to have a decent grasp on how to control their tire rules, and maybe we could adopt some of that for club level racing. One way to do it is to set a maximum number of new-tire-sets per season for those running for championships. we have a points system that takes the best 5 results from the season, so why not add another criterium, for example, no more than 3 sets of new tires could be used in those 5 best results?
All our tires have bar codes, so figuring out a system to monitor usage could be pretty easy for all the smart people in our club.

I've missed racing in Tag the last few years, especially masters where (very much like World Formula) the drivers are all very experienced and clean.