Wreck

[Chris Genovese]

I hesitate to post this, because I don't want to come across as easily bent out of shape (no pun intended, you'll understand in a second lol), or that I'm not prepared for racing incidents. I've been in various motorsports for the better part of 20 years. But this happened today in the 206 Seniors:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq5ifUquu3E

And now my frame is bent, not to mention my obvious change in position for the race.

Everyone who's watched it has found it hard to believe that it was not intentional. I'm not saying that's what I believe, because I've enjoyed racing with the said party for a number of races and it's hard for me to believe that could be the case. But I do want to say that I certainly hope that there will not be any chance of what looks to be a very preventable accident like this happening to me again.

[Garrett Boone]

Sorry you bent your frame and ruined your race. It's never fun to watch a race from the sidelines.

However, that accident was your fault. He was overtaking another driver and was occupying the inside. Even if he was occupying the inside to defend, he still has that right. You weren't even close to being far enough next to him to have position. You needed to have half a kart in the grass here, which is what you should have done in this situation. It's good that you went for the spot, but there wasn't room on the race track to do it.

What makes you think it was intentional?

[Chris Genovese]

Hmmm..... not sure I'm following. I am all the way to the inside, cannot go any further without being in the grass and not part of the tangling up that's happening to the right. After their contact, and before anyone has made contact with me, my GoPro near my steering wheel is so far next to his kart that I can see his steering wheel.

Then, if you watch closely, you can clearly see that even after contact is made while I'm on the inside and just going straight the drivers hands are continuing to turn in towards me even as we make contact. It's not just one hit, and then a correction away from me, but a hit and then more wheel input into my direction running me completely off the track.

I guess I'm not seeing what you're seeing here.

Edit: I've watched again the video, because if it is indeed my fault I want to understand how so I do not end up in the same position. But..... it seems clear to me, regardless of what the other two drivers have going on off to the right, that I have more kart on him than he has on the kart in front of him that ran off the track at any point in that video. If he is making a pass then it seems more questionable than the pass that I'm making on him. I picked that far inside line immediately on corner exit because I could see that they were about to come together. I never made contact with anyone.

My train of thought is that you block with the rear of your kart, not the side

[Patrick Roth]

I agree with Garrett on this one but don't let this frustrate you. The 4 kart appeared to be taking evasive action (or a passing move) as the 21 kart in front of him got loose (looks like the 21 may have dropped a wheel off). As Garrett eluded to, you weren't far enough next to the 4 to have the position and more specifically, the 4 probably couldn't see you because his focus was on the 21.

As far as it being intentional, I don't think this is the case as the 4 was moving left to clear the 21 and was worrying about the kart he was trying to pass (and not the kart the he likely couldn't see on his left). Any hand motion after contact was likely due to surprise...

I would've recommended to go in the grass or back off.

[Garrett Boone]

You have more kart on #4 than #4 has on the other guy, but #4 was making a move to the inside to defend. It didn't matter how much kart #4 had on the other guy because it was still the beginning of the straightaway.

Certainly, #4 could have been more aware. But you came out of the corner entering the straight and didn't even use all the track to the right. You made up your mind that you were going to pass on the left before you even exited the corner, but really the driver in front gets to make that call. #4 exited the corner and made the move to defend that he was entitled to, not knowing that you were 25% of the way next to him. It's better to exit the corner normally and make your decision based on where the lead kart goes - if you had stayed on the right, you would've motored past on the outside with ease.

Since you were already on the inside, you were committed. #4 was moving toward the inside, and you knew he was quickly diving to the inside of the track, so to avoid the accident you needed to either get off the power or get in the grass and continue the pass. I'd choose the latter. It's important to know whether the guy sees you or not - if he is moving over and not acknowledging you, then move over and put a tire in the grass or you're gonna end up spiraling out of control like you did here.

[dpergande]

Ya, I was right behind this and nothing intentional on anyone's part. With the 2 karts getting sideways, all 3 of them had choices to make...so all racing incidents.

If I remember correctly, mine was just to follow Chris to start since it was bunched up and he had a run (since I was sure I had 2-3 on my back bumper), but I think i moved back to the outside after I realized how much my LO206 didn't have a run LOL.

After running this class for 1st time, this is a "patience" class. I learned a lot and can't wait to do it again.

[Chris Genovese]

Man.... I swear I'm trying to be open minded. But given what you guys are saying I have no idea how you're supposed to make a pass if that is the case. In the driver's meeting there was already talk about not blocking.... so if that's the case then no one is supposed to be blocking on the straight, correct?

Regardless, I just don't consider it a block if you are doing it with the side of your kart. I'm on the far inside line, clearly have the drive and will pass likely both of them should no contact have been made, and then his side bumper past his numbers runs right over onto my right front tire when there is clearly space to his right between him and the other driver.

I can buy that maybe #4 was looking at the other kart and did not know that I'm there. If that's the case, it's a racing accident, no worries, see ya next race. But if what you guys are saying is true, I'm not sure how to pass anyone out there at all.

[Garrett Boone]

You are not allowed to block, but you are allowed to defend. There is a difference. You are allowed one defensive move when you enter the straight - #4 exited the corner on the right and made his move to the left. Once he is on the left, he is stuck there. If he moves back to the right, he "blocked" and that is against the rules. Once he moved to the left, you had the entire straightaway to pass him on the right and around the outside of the next corner. That's why it is important to not make up your mind before you even enter the straight. You have to see where the driver is going to go with his "one move." It is very easy to pass in the Briggs class - in your video at 8 seconds, you are right on his bumper. #4 moves over to the right to set up for the next corner, leaving the inside to turn 3 wide open. You just followed right behind him instead of staying on the left to overtake. That would have been a very easy pass to make, you could have done it with your eyes closed. However, I think you had it in your head that you wanted to pass on the straightaway and didn't consider that turn 3 might be a better spot (which it is). You can't defend going into turn 3, since it is a late apex and if you defend the entrance to 3, you ruin your exit and will get passed into 4. You can count on the fact that nobody is going to defend the entrance to the late apex turn 3, so if you exit turn 2 right behind your opponent, it's super easy to slip past on entrance to 3.

Pause the video at 9 seconds. You are right behind him. At 10 seconds, you are moving over to the right with #4. Try to imagine how easy it would have been to stay on the left and make that pass. Piece of cake, much easier than the straightaway AND it eliminates the worry of whether or not the lead kart is going to block.

Also - at 25 seconds, you had him perfectly set up. All you had to do was take a tighter line and slip by in the long double apex left hander.

But since we are talking about the incident on the straight, you still could have made the pass if you had just dipped a tire over the edge and continued with half the kart in the grass. There were many options available to you in the 50 seconds I watched.

[Chris Genovese]

I see what you are saying about moves to the inside.... but the question is how much kart do I need on the inside for the same type of incident not to happen. Seems to me like that would be more like stuffing the kart on the inside and hoping they yield.

By the way, in the pre-final Jake Bustos did EXACTLY what you are describing on #4 and #4 ran into him as well and almost caused and accident. I didn't mention that before, but I was right behind them and he can back that up.

Not sure I agree about easy passing in 206... the lack of horsepower and a field of 20 drivers, half of which are running bumper to bumper, feels pretty challenging to me. But I'm no pro so what do I know.

However, I need to understand if running 3 wide down the straight away is allowed or not. If that is not the case, and we are only allowed to run two lines on the straight away, then I am probably in the wrong. IF that is NOT the case, then I don't see how what I am doing to #4 is any different than what he is doing to 21. 21 picks the outside and runs off, 4 picks the inside of him to make the pass (which is on the middle of the track) and has very little momentum on him so is making his pass slowly. I pick the inside of 4, have more momentum and more kart on them than they do on each other... and then watch at 42 seconds... ignore everything else up to that point, it's racing.... just watch at 42 seconds. I am just sitting on the far inside of the track. There is plenty of room to #4's right, and I have plenty of room to my right. All of us fit with room to spare, and then BAM. #4 clearly turns into me. Did he see me? I can't answer that. But there is no time for me to put wheels in the grass, and there was no reason for me to expect that I needed to leading up to that. I had no reason that I can see to expect that someone would move over on me, and more importantly that move is going to cause a crash. I have a line, I'm not moving from it, I'm giving enough space for #4 to fit.

Pause it at 40 seconds and take a look..... there's half a kart width between #4 and #21. Ignoring everything else to that point .... who has what line, what momentum, who gets to block, who gets to pass.... at 40 seconds there are 3 karts going down the track side by side. This is where you loose me, because I don't get how at 40 seconds there should be any other expectation than 3 people running down to turn one and making choices at that point. Who knows, I might cook the brakes and set him up to pass me. I'm just not understanding the logic, and I really want to .... shit, I need to because I can't afford to be fixing karts every race. It seems like very, very unnecessary contact. Block, defense, lines ..... that is all debatable until 40 seconds in.

Sorry, not trying to be argumentative but I need to understand how this works so I don't wad my kart up. Unless we're allowed to come over on people on a straight away and either run them off the track or force them to hit the brakes to avoid an accident, I'm just not understanding all of this.

[Patrick Roth]

As long as your front bumper is behind the front bumper of the kart next to you, you are the trailing kart and it is your responsibility to not endanger/impair the leading kart.

The field of view starts at 90 degrees to the driver's visor (approximately halfway along the side pods). This is the earliest moment the kart you are next to can possibly see you. Some people's periphery and reaction speed isn't going to be as good as others so you need to take this into consideration.

I doubt there is a specific rule stating that you can't go 3 wide but it is high risk because the person in the middle has to keep track of two karts at the same time. If you are the person about to make it a 3 wide situation, you need to be ready to bail because it is unpredictable.

In the future if you are the trailing kart you need to be ready and willing to take action to avoid contact. Does this help?

[Garrett Boone]

Patrick is exactly right. You weren't far enough up on the other driver, so he didn't see you. The straightaway had just begun, he hadn't even had time to make his move yet. Give me a shout if you want to discuss. 713-806-4042. The reason this happened is because you made the wrong move in the first place. Kart 4 moved to the inside - if you had exited the corner naturally and assessed the situation, you would have stayed on the right and driven around him on the outside because you definitely had a big run. You just weren't far enough alongside him by the time he got to the inside. If you had gone into the grass when he came further down, you would have been able to buy yourself some time and get yourself far enough alongside him to be seen. You need to have your eye on the other kart if you see him coming down so you can get out of the way if needed.

But the pass in turn 3 or in the long left handed sweeper would have been much safer anyway. I very, very rarely make passes by driving next to someone down the straightaway. The vast majority of my passes come by stuffing the kart underneath the leading driver at the last second.. it's easier to get alongside lead kart when you pull a late braking maneuver. You are on the power, the other kart is not.. big speed differential, you'll be next to him in no time. If both karts are on the power, there's nothing you can really do to get seen if you aren't alongside. I can send you videos of late braking passes if that would help. It's much safer than trying to squeeze your way along the inside of a kart that is already defending. As I said, diving up the inside of turn 3 would have been 100x easier and safer than trying to go 3 wide down the straight.

[Chris Genovese]

Alright, I think these last two posts have cleared things up a bit for me. Thanks for your input, and what Patrick is saying does make sense. It's a risk/reward proposition. Unfortunately, by the time he came over on me I had no time to react at all but going three wide is a high risk proposition.

My thinking in the whole process was "accident to the right, move left" but when I saw that I had the drive on them I committed to the inside. Had driver #4 made a move far to the left initially, or continued in an arc towards the inside, I'd have yielded but I felt during that moment (and really until now lol) that he had to know I was there and just moved over on me.

I see a little better what you guys are seeing

[Chris Genovese]

I want to make a follow up post after giving all of this some real thought.

My only real concern in posting any of this in the first place was that it appeared to myself, and many others who watched the video when I first posted it, that I was intentionally run off the track. I posted the video because I felt that if I was intentionally run off the track then that posed a problem for me. I'm pretty sure we're all in agreement that this is probably outside the bounds of how aggressive we'd like to be driving out there.

Everything after I was not intentionally run off the track I think looks like a much bigger issue than I was trying to make with any of this, and that was definitely not my intention.

If this was just a racing incident then sincerely, NO BIG DEAL. I'm saying that because I think maybe I've generated more conversation than I intended to with all of this. I'm really not upset at all, no matter who actually caused the accident, as long as it was an accident.

The subsequent conversation about who was at fault was only my concern with knowing what the rules of passing are out here, what are realistic expectations for what constitutes a pass, and how I can avoid a similar accident in the future. I'm really not upset in this discussion, so I'm hoping it doesn't come across that way. I was simply not understanding the input that I was getting.

Going forward, I'll be trying to avoid a three wide situation .... I saw a moment to make a pass that I felt like was completely legitimate, but I wasn't considering the added complication of three karts running down the straight away making decisions from a collision so I should have been prepared for the possibility that the driver ahead of me did not know that I was there. I genuinely felt in that moment, and really up until the end of this discussion, that he had to know that I was there. That's the "intention of the driver" part that I was having a problem with in all of this discussion. I posted it up here to get your opinions on whether or not it was intentional, and everyone seems to agree that it was not, so I'm totally cool if that is the case! And apologies for stirring things up with the subsequent discussion.

So ..... to sum up .... Racing Incident, No Biggie! LOL

And my apologies if I've irritated anyone with this discussion. I've only been racing with you guys for a few months now, but I've already made a lot of great friends and I'm so impressed with how truly helpful everyone is out there!

[Jean Michel Gaston]

Chris,

I think it was simply a racing incident. I don't think he knew you were there when he moved over. I had a similar incident trying to pass Chris Watts later in the race. I made a move to pass, he didn't see me as he made a move to pass the guy in front of him. My fault. I should have waited.

Did you talk it out with #4 after the race?

[Chris Genovese]

I did, and there wasn't much in the way of apology .... neither one of us had seen the video at that time, and I was not trying to jump to conclusions at that moment so I decided to watch the video first.

When I watched the video, and showed many others, the consensus opinion was leaning towards I was intentionally run off the track which is when I started to get a little "hot." LOL

Not trying to go all Tony Stewart I thought that a discussion on this forum might bring a bit of clarity instead of a trackside confrontation.

Maybe that was a mistake, LOL??